Hello and welcome to the profile here on premier Christian radio with me Sam Hales and the editor of premier Christianity magazine. That’s the UK is leading Christian publication. If you would like to have a look at what we’re doing with the magazine, you can request yourself a free copy just go to premiere christianity.com
forward slash free sample. But today here on the profile I am delighted to say I am joined by the Scottish theologian, Dr. Sinclair Ferguson. This is the show where we delve into a person’s life, faith and testimony and Dr. Ferguson is a ligonier ministries teaching fellow and chancellors professor of systematic theology at reformed Theological Seminary. He’s also authored many books, and has decades of experience on the front line of Christian ministry. He’s a well known Bible teacher, especially among Christians who identify with Reformed theology. Dr. Ferguson, welcome to the show.
Sinclair Ferguson 1:12
Well, thank you very much. So I’m glad to be able to speak to you.
Sam Hailes 1:16
So we would like to start here by asking about a person’s life growing up so we can probably already tell from the accent I’m imagine that you were born and bred in Scotland, is that right?
Sinclair Ferguson 1:26
Absolutely. Right. Yes, I was born and brought up in Glasgow, although my family comes to the north of Scotland, born and East End of Glasgow went to school there. didn’t leave Glasgow until I went away to university.
Sam Hailes 1:41
And tell me a bit about your parents. What was your kind of upbringing liking in Glasgow?
Sinclair Ferguson 1:46
Yeah, it was pretty typical. Postwar east end of Glasgow upbringing. My folks didn’t go to church at all, actually, until after I was converted 20 Was 14 almost 15. But in the 1950s and Scotland that was still the that was still the done thing to send your children to Sunday school. And so they sent me to the church at the end of the street, actually, they wouldn’t have known what that church was really like. But I was looking back now wonderfully blessed by having several really very fine Christian Sunday school teachers, who in different ways left their mark on me, and helped me into the beginnings of my Christian life when I was 14, almost 15
Sam Hailes 2:36
Do you remember what that moment was? Like? Was there a particular time where you really kind of made a made a commitment to God? was it was it a gradual thing?
Sinclair Ferguson 2:45
Yeah, it was actually it was both graduate. And you know, I really can put, I can put a half hour on it. It was gradual in the sense that one of my Sunday school teachers, whose name was Jimmy Stewart, not the actor He He was my Sunday school teacher. And he encouraged me to join the scripture union, which I’m sure most listeners will know about. Yeah. And so I did that when I was nine. And I actually read the Bible with looking back now amazing consistency for the next five years I probably missed, probably less than a week of days when I did not read the Bible. But I think in reading it, I think I amazing to look back and think I became I think I kind of quintessential person who thought that being a Christian was reading my Bible praying. And in those days helping old ladies across the street, try not to get into too much trouble going to religious exercises as the forefathers would have caught them. And then when I was 14, we had a new minister in our church. And there was something of a minor spiritual awakening, especially among younger people. And I think for the first time I saw in some people I knew who were a little older than I was. Fortunate wise, I’d been reading in the New Testament. And, and that somewhere to my shock, actually, as I look back, made me realise that I wasn’t really a Christian at all. Wow. So that began, on a variety of other things began a longing to know Christ, which was punctuated in the course of a few months by some really wonderful Providence’s of God. For example, I started going to both services on Sunday, and one Sunday night and January I was I was walking away from church down the street slipped a little on ice slithered behind beside a man I never forget a small man who seemed to be dressed in black from head to toe. And someone another we engaged in conversation. And he saw that I was holding a Bible. And he said to me, have you saved son. And it was really like a bolt from the blue. And, and in an amazing way it put his finger on what I wanted. Most of all in the world. I knew I wanted to be a real Christian.
Sam Hailes 5:33
It’s amazing to me that you were reading your Bible, you say, You hardly missed a day of Bible reading. And you were praying and as you say, you were you were helping old ladies across the street. And yet, when he asked that question, are you saved? You felt like actually the answer was no.
Sinclair Ferguson 5:48
You know, the interesting thing was I had I must have been reading and John’s Gospel with the scripture union, not Sam. And I had just been reading Jesus saying To his contemporaries, you search the Scriptures, because in them you think you have eternal life. And you want come to me to have life. And I think that may have been the first verse in which it felt as though Christ was walking straight out of the Bible. And speaking to me because that described, I realised that described exactly where I was. I had confused reading the Bible with knowing Christ. And then some friends encouraged me to go along to a church that Sunday was in the centre of Glasgow, St. George’s trying where they had meetings on set every every month. That was a Saturday night and meeting, a church packed lots of young people. And the minute the then Minister, a man called Tom Allen preached on john john a 12 Jesus saying, I am the light of the world he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but the light of life. And it was it was during that service that I gave all I had to Christ and took all he had for me from Christ, one might say, so that I kind of mark the real beginnings of my Christian life to to that Saturday night February. It was a dark February night. Night of great light for me. And since then, of course,
Sam Hailes 7:35
you have gone on to write many books to do all kinds of Christian ministry will come on to talk about that. But I guess the first question is, when was the call to that? Can you in the same way as you can identify that moment where you gave your life to God? Can you also identify Ma’am, your life where you felt called to that kind of wider?
Sinclair Ferguson 7:53
I don’t know whether it’s a function of being older but I can’t remember the day I can’t even Remember the year, but I can remember the incident that prompted me. Somebody asked a friend, just we were all trying to learn and somebody said to him, what are you going to do is that I’m going to be a minister. And I knew this fellow quite well, but I didn’t know that. And I kind of liken it to the Lord saying to Isaiah, who am I going to send? And who will go far Oh, so nice is saying here my sent me. Because it was like, it was like a light going on. In my mind. I really had no idea what I was going to do. I think I was 16 at the time. And it was just a moment when I thought oh, that’s it. That’s what I’m to do.
And so that was that
Sam Hailes 8:52
was the next step to go to university to do. Since
Sinclair Ferguson 8:57
you know, those days I guess We’re workplaces and university for maybe about 5% of the population. And I didn’t know anyone in my family who had gone so the first big challenge was how how do you do this? Is it humanly possible to get into university? And it seemed from one point of view, like this great, insurmountable obstacle. And then when I got there, I discovered it wasn’t actually nearly as insurmountable as I feared.
Sam Hailes 9:33
So did you find academic study then came quite naturally to you?
Sinclair Ferguson 9:38
Yeah, I, I guess I was I played I played sport and I also my mother had been a great reader and I think I’d picked up reading from my mother. So some some subjects I enjoyed and other side I didn’t enjoy and things I enjoy that tended to focus on and the rest I could be very So I love I actually loved school. I love love to university as well. Yeah, it’s a great example.
Sam Hailes 10:07
And what came next.
Sinclair Ferguson 10:09
Then I Well, I did, I did an artist degree in philosophy and psychology and then I did theology degree. And then a, I became the Assistant Minister in the church and which had been converted in in the centre of Glasgow, and I was there for three years. And then I I live on the island of onst as a minister, which most listeners will have no idea where it is, but essentially the most northerly island in the United Kingdom was normally inhabited island.
Sam Hailes 10:49
So I’m, I’m picturing something quite rural when it comes to
Sinclair Ferguson 10:54
completely it was it was, it was about as far removed from a bit vibrant city centre Evangelical Church in Glasgow as you could imagine, it was that I think there were more sheeple and people. That was a wonderful and learning experience. And it was also since particularly in the winter, it was dark, from maybe about three o’clock in the afternoon until almost 10 o’clock in the morning. I actually had a lot of time for study. And that was an important thing to me because I felt that if I was going to last in Christian ministry, I needed to get some deeper roots into my soul. So look back on that time has been a great blessing to me.
Sam Hailes 11:46
What were the what were the lessons you learned in going from a big city church to somewhere much more rural? And and the reason I asked that is I’m aware there are many of course, who are still ministering in more rural contexts and who do often look at the The big cities and even some of the people who might be well known in the Christian world and in bigger places with huge churches and it can be quite demoralising. I think for those who are pastoring in in smaller context, what were the lessons that you, you learnt there about being faithful being being a minister of the gospel in in quite different setting?
Sinclair Ferguson 12:19
Yeah, I think I think I began to learn then, you know, I was still in my I was in my mid 20s. I think I began to learn then, that I think I’d placed a great emphasis on on preaching and teaching the word. I know, I didn’t really have the experience to understand that. That bears fruit in a congregation when people know you love them. And that was a huge lesson for me to learn to think of think of people in the congregation as people to be loved, and that that would be the context in which the message of the gospel would flow most readily to them. Because they would sense something of the interest of Jesus Christ and them by their ministers and interest in them. And that’s probably a lesson that, you know, every young man going into Christian ministry needs to learn, you know, people, you know, by and large, that has much better theological education available today than that wise man. And it’s easy to mistake, the value of your theological education for an ability to serve people. And I think I’ve learned to you know, Paul says, an interesting thing and second Corinthians chapter four, I think it’s verse five. When it says we, you know, we, we don’t preach ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord and then he adds ourselves Your servants for Jesus sake. And so those were days I think when you know if you have a huge congregation essentially, it’s actually quite difficult to express the riches of the gospel to them through your personal relationships with them and is one of the blessings of, of having a smaller congregation. That’s a great challenge is if you move into a rural setting, you know, for the first 40 years you’re an outsider.
And and people are related to one another.
And I, my boss said to me, the man that it was assistant and being is that it will be wonderful to get away from the sin of the city. And when I got there, I thought to myself, actually, in the city of the center’s hidden, but here if nobody knows about it, except, you know, And it’s it. I think it does take people in a rural community, a longer time to realise that you you actually love them. And you know, the other thing, I’ve been a minister and a large church of two and a half thousand people, and I know that some ministers look at that and think must be great to have a great staff, and signer sit on, you know, I, we’ve got as many staff as you’ve got members of the congregation, think about, think about the struggles you have in your congregation, when you see them, you know, two days a week, you know, it’s not, it’s not, you know, larger structures are not without their problems. And I think in many ways, you know, I often say to the students I teach in the seminary, don’t be taken in by the fact that all of the interviews you see, with quotes, successful ministers are ministers of large churches. Because I don’t think Christ sees his pastors that way. And often when you read the statistics, you realise, you know, these people, these people have more people not coming to worship in their churches, then you have people in your church, right? Yeah. So often, if you know if they’re honest about it, they have multiplied spiritual problems and burdens.
Sam Hailes 16:26
You’ve done a lot of work in America. I wanted to talk a bit about that. How did how did all that first come about? Because I noticed you’re not the only Scottish reformed minister, to go over to the states and to be quite well known over there. It’s a curious trend, but how did it happen for you?
Sinclair Ferguson 16:43
Yes, well, you know, my friend, I was still back and I both went to the United States the same year. And although we’ve been friends for our very close friends, neither of us knew the other was going I think we klepto under cover of night, I went, I went basically because I was I was somewhat pursued by the president of assembly. And I went, I went kind of kicking and screaming. I mean, eventually I was subdued. But I didn’t. I didn’t want to leave Scotland. I, I, I actually didn’t want to teach in a theological seminary full time. So it took it took, it took best part of nine, maybe nine, well, six months for me to come to the decision that this was the Lord’s will. And, you know, looking back now, I rejoice and blessings are brought to my life. But it was a it was a tough decision to make. And actually,
Sam Hailes 18:06
yeah, I mean, some might look from the outside on this analysis, the bag is a previous guest on this show. And he tells his own story of course about about how that happened. But, and obviously we have to acknowledge if God calls someone got cool someone at the same time, I guess pragmatically you could argue well, Scotland, especially nowadays, is incredibly secular and arguably, far more in need of gospel preaching, arguably, than some parts of America. And there has been quite a not just your analysis, but there’s been quite a lot of UK ministers who have ended up in America and some people have looked at this as a slightly curious trend thinking but surely we need gospel preaching here, more than America where secularising and a far faster rate I mean, what do you make of that argument?
Sinclair Ferguson 18:54
Well, I’m completely understand that empathy. With it at the same time, you know, I, you know, I think if the if the largest sovereign and providentially overrules our lives, then, in a way we should expect things like this to happen. And for example, to use our story as an illustration and see what I don’t know whether he said this probably not more people in the United Kingdom can listen to Alistair’s preaching today than we’d ever have been able to do if he had stayed in Scotland. Now, that’s not something that you can predict going forwards. But now at this distance from 1983, when, when he went to Cleveland, you can I think you can see the hand of God’s blessing on people who listen to him in Scotland man. Imagine all over the world. So I think one has to want us to buy The sense of loss with the with the fairly obvious gains, you know, I’m not sure that could be that could not be said with with respect to me, but I don’t think but on the other hand, you know, I have I have helped in the preparation of many more people for gospel ministry throughout the world than I ever would have been able to do in Scotland. Yes. So in that sense, obviously, because I’m an individual involved and having left the country I look for Lord, you know, why am I leaving this situation? I love to go into a situation that I don’t really belong at the moment. We live that way, don’t we? We we we make decisions believing them to be the Lord’s will. But we can never totally second guess what His focus was on it.
Sam Hailes 21:01
Yeah. I’d love to know what you’ve observed in America. What surprises you over there or has surprised you particularly about Christians about understanding of the Bible? You know, are there certain things that you’ve observed there that you think the UK church can learn from or even things you’ve observed over that you think, Wow, our American friends are getting this wrong in a way that us Brits perhaps haven’t?
Sinclair Ferguson 21:27
Yes. Well spent half my time in the United States defending the National Health Service to defending American Christians, when when I know the first time I went to teach in a seminary so that was, that was a different kind of experience from going like Allister to be minister of a church, and in some ways, it was a lot easier. Because you’ve got a you’ve got a pretty small slice of the pie to deal with. But one of the first things The students wanted me to do was to watch American religious TV. to, to, to baptise me into one of the problems they had, which was explaining to people that a lot of the things they saw on American religious television, were not authentic Christianity, as in the 80s, and into the 90s actually emerged, all kinds of scandals over people who are very prominent in religious television. And so I think one of the things I discovered was there were there was the United States is a United States and Christianity in the United States comes in all shapes and sizes. I would have said about the United Kingdom. That kind of default Christianity tended towards modern modern racism and a kind of sense of, if you’re if you’re living a good life, which we all want to live, then you can call yourself a Christian. Whereas, so it didn’t. I don’t think British Christianity has ever really defaulted to evangelical Christianity. evangelical Christianity has sometimes been stronger and often been weaker. But in the United States because of the way the Christian faith spread default Christianity in many parts of the United States had to kind of evangelical tinge about it. And so you you would find that that that evangelical 10 just a friend said to me about one area in which I actually went to Christianity, Christianity is a mile wide and an inch deep. One of the things I noticed, for example, when I went was that British, British evangelical churches were much more likely to gather together for prayer than American evangelical churches. And yet, what was paradoxical was the size of the buildings and the size of the congregation. And I thought so much then about the fact that because often, evangelical Christians have backs against the wall here, that they had, they still had the most important things in place. Whereas in in many American churches, all the kinds of active mystic things that we can do have swallowed up the space and the time of the church programme. And the recognition that actually we cannot do the fundamental things without seeking the blessing of God had begun to be pushed to the edges and Many churches. So and there are many things that you know, Americans you know, by and large, half full glass people and we we count generally are well, half empty and optimistic. Yeah. You know, greater flexibility, which was was, you know, a wonderful thing. I think I found also that a major thing in the United States was that Christians had built institutions. They had built schools, elementary schools, high schools, they built universities and colleges. And that provided a strength that nothing in the United Kingdom did. And you could, you could often see that, for example, in in the eldership of the church or the leadership of the church, and just know that the church I was in, I ended up to in seminary and being minister of a church simultaneously, and the the ability of the elders in the congregation was pretty remarkable.
Sam Hailes 26:10
I’m Sam Harris, you’re listening to my interview with Dr. Sinclair Ferguson on the profile this afternoon. Whether you’re joining us on air on premier Christian radio or via the podcast, I hope you’re enjoying the conversation so far. Dr. Ferguson will be one of the speakers at the upcoming conference organised by ligonier ministries, the light of the world it’s happening in London end of September, we are giving away two free tickets to that conference when you subscribe to premier Christianity magazine get two free tickets to the lights of the World Conference those tickets are normally worth 118 pounds but you can have them completely free for that upcoming conference just go to premier christianity.com
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Unknown Speaker 27:16
premier Christianity magazine. In this month’s issue.
Sam Hailes 27:20
Former Blue Peter presenter Simon Thomas had it all a successful TV career, a loving family and a strong faith. But when his wife died, his world fell apart. And the latest issue Simon talks candidly about grief on answered prayer and why death is not the end. plus RT Kendall writes on the silent divorce between word and spirit. Nick page tells us why questioning the Bible is a biblical thing to do. And the best selling Christian author Philip Yancey shares his insights on the state of the global church.
Unknown Speaker 27:49
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Unknown Speaker 28:28
The profile
Unknown Speaker 28:34
you’re listening to premier Christian radio.
Sam Hailes 28:41
Welcome back to the profile here on premier Christian radio with me Sam Harris. I’m the editor of premier Christianity magazine. That’s the UK is leading Christian publication. It sponsors this show and this is the show where we delve into a person’s life hear more about what makes them tick and hear more about their ministry. today. My guest is the Sinclair Ferguson, the well known reformed scholar, author and speaker, he’ll be appearing at the Light of the World Conference organised by ligonier ministries. It’s ligonier ministry, his first ever UK conference. It’s coming to London this September. And you can get two tickets completely free. These two tickets are normally worth 118 pounds, but you can have them completely free. All you have to do is subscribe to the UK leading Christian magazine, which is of course premier Christianity is the magazine that I edits. We publish it every single month, and you can get it delivered direct to your door plus for online access, simply subscribe premier christianity.com
forward slash subscribe, you’ll get the mag and you’ll get those two tickets. But without any further ado, let’s listen in to the second half of my conversation with Dr. Sinclair, folks. I’d love to hear a bit more about that idea of both teaching academic theology and also practising it on a local church level. Do you have any stories of how one would inform the other
Sinclair Ferguson 29:59
yeah You know, idle was my I felt my basic call was to be a minister of the gospel preaching of the gospel. And I’d always loved I love academics. But I never wanted to be an academic. And in a sense, band, most of my life bouncing between one and the other. So when I was teaching full time in seminary, I would beg, borrow or steal somebody else’s congregation. And when I was in a congregation, I would, I would take opportunities to do some preaching, and then
latterly
a congregation in Columbia, South Carolina. They phoned me up one day and said, we’re coming to see you. We’re looking for a senior minister, we’re coming to see you and we’re not taking no for an answer. And I burst out laughing and the man on the other end of the phone happily I start laughing. And this was an old established church. It’ll be 225 years old next year, which by American standards is started. And they did come and see me and I told them why I couldn’t leave the seminary. And they said, well, would you be willing to live somewhere else? And I was intrigued by the fact that this old established church had the flexibility of mind to think that maybe there is something and having one of our ministers and eventually the two of them ministers who were also heavily involved in training people who are going into ministry in the future. And for me, personally, that brought together that the two sides of my being beautifully and I think it meant that for the students in the seminary who kept are used to asking professors the why question. That is to say that the theoretical theological question, I actually at that period in my life, which was the last period of moment, my full time ministry, you might say, I found that woven into these five questions. Were a lot more questions. And I think that was elicited from them because I was I was perceived as somebody who was getting my hands dirty. They didn’t believe in the work of the ministry of the gospel. And, and so I felt very much that for me, that was ideal. And while I think, you know, there’s a place and theological institutions for people who are eggheads, you know, I think our theological faculty should have a really good balance. Yes. But from I think, for the seminary, that was also an important balance and it was a thrilling thing to me that the church had that vision for future ministry for, you know, as I would say, you know, we are, we’re preparing your grandchildren’s pastors, and you love your grandchildren. And so this is a tremendously important extension of the ministry that we share in the church. And the church was large enough that we had half a dozen pastors, we had all kinds of other people, and they felt that they would be able to cope with me spending some time at least teaching.
Sam Hailes 33:35
Yes. And so so bring us up to date them with your with your story. What does life look like for you right now?
Sinclair Ferguson 33:44
Well, it looks as though it’s going to rain.
Sam Hailes 33:47
You are in Scotland to be fair,
Sinclair Ferguson 33:48
yeah. Well, life is composed of of kind of concentric circles are my personal life, my family life And then the nearest concentric circle is the church to which we belong some Peters Free Church and Dundee. And when when we came back to Scotland, the Minister Dr. David Robertson, who is just about to head off to Australia actually asked if I would come and help him and I said as long as it’s not a job because if this was time for a job, I’d still be in the United States doing what I love doing. So I since then I am basically the honorary evening preacher, the honoree evening curate as I like to call myself I preach more Sunday nights in the year and and I’m an elder in the congregation and that’s really, that’s kind of my elders responsibility. And that’s been a great privilege for me, because, you know, moving from preaching four or five times a week to not doing any offered I think would have been a bit of a psychological shock to me, then I still have a seminary appointment. As you mentioned at the beginning, I’m a Chancellor’s professor at reformed Theological Seminary, which has about eight different campuses spread throughout the United States. And so I have a visa with many a danda it because you need to know where you’re going. And then I have for a number of years, I’ve been a teaching fellow with ligonier ministries, that ministry was founded by RC Sproul.
Sam Hailes 35:36
Yes. And I had the great honour of interviewing RC Sproul on on a couple of occasions before. Really Yes, before he passed away, sadly. Yeah, I also recently interviewed his son, RC Sproul, Jr. Again, previous guest on this show, but I wanted to get to go back to this idea. I mentioned the beginning. You’re well known in reformed circles, and indeed RC Sproul and ligonier ministries would fit that kind of category or label of of Reformed theology. For those who aren’t aware of what that would even mean, can you give a brief sketch of what Reformed theology is? And also why it matters?
Sinclair Ferguson 36:15
Yeah, well, in some ways, the the simplest way to put it is it’s, it is the, it’s the it’s the recovery of the gospel that the reformers experienced. shaped a little by the, the way in which that was understood in Switzerland, and France, and England and Scotland and what we will know called the United Kingdom. That is to say it was a recovery of the, the freeness of God’s grace, and the the outworking of that in terms of well if God is gracious to us because we are to use language of effusions to we are dead in our trespasses and sins. How does God work in order to bring us to faith in Jesus Christ? And so what Reformed theology tended to emphasise I guess the name people would associate with Reformed theology, most of all would be john Calvin. What Reformed theology actually emphasised Why’s the fullness of God’s grace given to us in Jesus Christ? Think often people associate the idea of predestination with Reformed theology and with Calvin Yeah, and certainly that is an element in Calvin and also and Reformed theology. But if you if you read Calvin if you read the reformed theological statements, many ways 39 articles as a reformed theological statement, Westminster confession of faith, as is a bigger and more robust theological statement. Most of the focus is on God’s covenant mercy towards us, and the way in which he presents that to us in Jesus Christ. One of the things for example, that that RC emphasise emphasised was the so how does the Bible Answer the question Who is God, which is always the most important question in the world, and actually shapes people’s Christian lives? I think, I think often Christians don’t realise this, that the way we live the Christian life is a reflection of the way in which we think about God until RCM for size, the holiness of God.
Sam Hailes 38:44
Yes, there are there are a number of
like you say, quite often, predestination is is cited as something that’s very close to Reformed theology or Calvinism. And as you say, that isn’t necessarily how reform reform types themselves would necessarily want to be known. It is more about the glory of God or the holiness of God’s. But there are there are some stereotypes out there about Reformed theology on that. I mean, one of them is is just that it’s it’s very serious and sometimes those who have followed it have, have slightly paradoxically not always been known for being the most gracious even though the theology itself would emphasise the grace of God it’s sometimes had a reputation for being quite strident for being quite closed for appearing like it kind of has all the answers neatly sewn up, and even being quite judgmental towards other Christians or how much of that stereotype is grounded in reality and how much of that is unfair criticism?
Unknown Speaker 39:43
Yeah,
Sinclair Ferguson 39:45
I think what I would say I mean, this is a this is a form of argumentation that I’ve met on millions who have assumed I met charismatic. So obviously, you know, The these, you know, fake but this week I’ve met people who were on minions 10 days ago and not just as irritating Calvinists 10 days later as they were on minion so that you know that I think that kind of argument is one that bounces back on every Christian ism. Because it’s often got to do not so much with the theology itself, but with the people. And and they are, they’re cranky dispositions. You find those people in most evangelical churches, they may put different labels on themselves. But they’re argumentative, they’re awkward, they’re judgmental. So that’s what I’m saying is I don’t think that it’s a phenomenon produced by being a Calvinist or reformed I think it’s a phenomenon of the sinful human heart. And that’s why I think it’s very interesting that you know, every there’s so many passages in the New Testament that speak directly to those those dysfunctional tendencies and people who are refined and so like I sometimes see, how does Paul describe a Calvinist? But he says in Colossians, three, that they as the elect of God, you put on meekness and gentleness. So those will be the signs that you are the elect of God. But that applies and you know, that applies in every church doesn’t, you know, Pastor, the church of the Nazarene, Nora nealon, Pentecostal church or some independent church that wouldn’t advertise itself as reform Yeah. finds the same kind of dysfunction. So you know what I say about lanters just ease back on the accelerator. When you’re critical of people in in another Christian constituency, because if you enter that constituency, you will find people who model the grace of God and the gospel.
Sam Hailes 42:15
It’s been interesting to watch how in the UK there have been people and indeed entire church streams that have been quite comfortable marrying Reformed theology and charismatic theology. So someone like RT Kendall would talk about being word and spirits, you have a church movement, like new frontiers, that would argue very similarly, you don’t see that so much in the US in my experience, and if you’d agree with that, that in the UK, a lot of the evangelical churches is quite comfortable. with with with the charismatic with the gifts of the spirits, with speaking in tongues, in a way that often if you were the reformed label, especially in America, there seems to be quite a strong divide of or either you believe the Bible All you’re charismatic in a way that doesn’t seem to exist in this country is would you agree with that?
Sinclair Ferguson 43:05
Yeah, to a certain extent, perhaps because of of size as much as anybody else. But there would be, there would be a number of groupings that were in the United States who would say they were reformed, and something else. You know, refer them down dispensationalists not too many people in the UK see that are reformed and can asthmatic like, you know, the sovereign grace structures, I think, in the United States, so yeah, not really. I think another thing I would say is, by and large, you know, we are a small island here, and we and we’ve got to find a way of getting on. I think it’s true. I mean, in my in my modest moments of sometimes said, any nutcase and the United States can find a millionaire who is willing to subsidise is not casing us. And that that’s not been true in the United Kingdom, we, you know, we’ve more needed to find ways of getting on with one another.
Sam Hailes 44:16
That’s very interesting. Brings brings me on to another area I wanted to touch on very briefly. And that is, of course, the context of Reformed theology, as you say, came out of the Reformation at a time where there were huge a huge theological divide on some very important issues that bring it into the into the present day, particularly with how evangelical Christians or how people who might take their form label, how they think of how they work with people who are Catholic. does there need to be a shift because some, some would argue that yes, of course, the heart the reformation, justification by faith, incredibly important. At the same time, you mentioned we’re a small island we need to get on we need to work together and there’ll be somebody say, Look We both believe that Jesus died for our sins. We need to repent, if both both Protestants and Catholics can can agree on the cross on the resurrection on Jesus, that’s fundamental. That’s what matters. And I would question how useful it is to continue to talk and very start terms against Catholics. What do you make of that?
Sinclair Ferguson 45:23
Well, you know, I think that there are two things here some at least two things one is I think you get Christian people all over the place could don’t actually believe what their church officially teachers, right. But as churches, I don’t think we can afford to think at that level of the individual. So for example, if you said to Calvin other other believers in the Roman Catholic Church, he would have said Well, yes that I believers in the Roman Catholic Church, if you would ask them, does the Roman Catholic Church accurately teach the gospel? He would have said, No, it doesn’t. And I think it’s at that level that the question needs to be asked. And at least as I, you know, I’ve paid a fair amount of attention, for example, especially to the writings of the previous Pope, the Pope Emeritus Joseph Ratzinger Benedict the 16th. And if you read selectively in his writings, you would find that there was there was a lot in common, okay. between an evangelical and I don’t even jellicle and and his writings, but if you read them all, it seems to me that our elements in that teaching for everything that the Roman Catholic Church stood for the time of reformation is still there. Okay? All the old convictions are still there. Now that in my view, they’re, they’re muted in a way they weren’t then. And the genius of the Roman Catholic churches, it’s been able to hold together in one organisation, people who believe all kinds of things. I mean, when you begin to probe, the Roman Catholic Church is as wide as it’s, in some ways, it’s wider than the Church of England, right? So in a way, it depends to whom you’re speaking. But when you probe into so what does the church tell us that believes it essentially believes the same things and that means that when you hear a Roman Catholic see something that sounds exactly like what you would say, I think you need to understand that behind that. That is a whole body of doctrine that has not really changed.
Sam Hailes 48:00
You’re going to be in London at the end of September for ligonier is the Light of the World Cup. Yes, I’m crossing
Sinclair Ferguson 48:07
the border.
Sam Hailes 48:09
We will welcome you with open
Sinclair Ferguson 48:10
arms. I was in London last week actually.
Sam Hailes 48:16
We’ve already touched briefly on RC Sproul and ligonier ministries, but this is an organisation you’ve been working with for some time. It is, as I understand it, and American based organised organisation ligonier ministries, and this is its first ever London conference. And now as as we know, there are many conferences, festivals, events in the Christian calendar in this country, but this this is a new one. So why should people look in for ligonier ministries, the Light of the World Conference, and what are you going to be sharing that?
Unknown Speaker 48:47
Well,
Sinclair Ferguson 48:49
first of all, ligonier I would say in the last 10 years ligonier his ministry has expanded enormously. RC was very forward thinking and the way in which he and the trustees of the organisation planned for the future. And in a sense, it has become ubiquitous. It has a huge Spanish ministry now has an increasing Arabic ministry. tabletop magazine pushes thousands, hundreds of thousands of readers goes all over the place. And so I think ligonier simply wants to encourage Christians in areas where their ministry has become appreciated. And that’s the chief reason for the conference. I think another thing is that ligonier has a number of conferences during the year and although you know, I’m obviously involved in in ligonier, but they they do things really very, very well and there they are. aim is not for theologians and theological students are even in this instance for ministers. It’s it’s for ordinary Christians. And, you know if you are so so what are they doing and fading? London? I guess? I guess part of the answer is, this is this is a conference in which the speakers are men of maturity who are reformed in their theology. And there isn’t really another conference like this, as far as I know that our ministers conferences here and there. And there are certainly conferences for Christians in general, but I don’t know that there’s a conference quite like this. They had one in Belfast last year, which was very, very well attended and enormously appreciated actually by folks in northern London beyond. And so this is really a kind of putting the other foot into the, into the British water are putting it across across the pond. Why? Because it has become a very international ministry. So yes.
Sam Hailes 51:13
And and indeed, there’s Michael Reeves speaking as well.
Sinclair Ferguson 51:18
Yeah. And that’s a good cross section of
Sam Hailes 51:20
speakers I think. Both US and UK. Yeah.
Sinclair Ferguson 51:25
So there, you know ligonier ligonier has never had the attitude, you know, the big boys are coming. Sure now. So it’s been, it’s always been a ministry that has looked to supporting the church and the churches.
Sam Hailes 51:42
I’d love to know. How would you describe your calling?
Sinclair Ferguson 51:45
I think of things in concentric circles. In my calling, first of all has to be liberal arts to be a Christian, second, chronologically For me as an individual, the second element in my calling has been a call to ministry. And then the third element, and this kind of reverses the order for most people, the third element has been marriage and family. And those two for us have been very much two sides of, of the same coin. And then that set within the context of belonging to a local church and serving in the local church. And that then say, in the context of whatever it is I happen to do in the world, and I am doing the world at the moment is is be a beer, retired minister and an author and so I think about a lot of things in terms of concentric circles. Absolutely.
Well, I sadly we’re out of time, somebody would have made this very speedy some master the The interview
Sam Hailes 53:00
Oh, that’s too kind. I
Sinclair Ferguson 53:03
don’t know the degree of Master of the and
Sam Hailes 53:06
if such a thing exists, I would love one. But Dr. Ferguson, thank you so much for joining us on the show. Really appreciate your time.
Unknown Speaker 53:12
Thank you.
Sam Hailes 53:14
I’m Sam house, you’re listening to premier Christian radio. you’ve joined us for the profile. This show is also available as a podcast. And if you are listening to this currently, as a podcast, we’d really appreciate it. If you could give us a rating and a review on whatever platform you’re currently listening to this on. It helps other people discover the show, and it puts a smile on my face. I mean, what more to one, please give us a rating give us a review. It really helps. And just before we go, I should remind you that of course the Light of the World Conference is coming up. It features all sorts of well known Christian speakers. It’s organised by ligonier ministries, and we’d love you to go for free. Claim your two free tickets worth 119 pounds. When you take out a subscription to premier Christianity magazine. It’s a fantastic offer. You’ll get 12 issues of the UK leading Christian magazine and that features interviews and news and features and contests and so much more. You also get full online access to our archive. And you’ll get those tickets the conference premier christianity.com
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